Accessibility Navigation:

Interview with Luther Kelly

Kelly, Luther
Kelly, Susan
Felkner, Peter H.
Date of Interview: 
basketball; basketball and James Naismith Memorial Hall of Fame; Dr. James Naismith; YMCA; Charlotte, NC; Charlotte, NC and basketball; F.C. Abbott; Charlotte, NC and real estate development; Levine Museum of the New South
Luther Kelly and his wife Susan discuss Luther's grandfather, F.C. Abbott, and how he played in the very first basketball game in 1891. Along with describing F.C. Abbott's role in the original game, the Kellys talk about the history of basketball and its founder, Dr. James Naismith. They continue their discussion with basketball's role in Charlotte, NC and the various people from Charlotte who played college basketball, specifically the McCachren boys. The Kellys also describe the various developments around Charlotte that F.C. Abbott's real estate company created and the role of the YMCA.
Charlotte, NC early 1900s-1993
Interview Setting: 
The home of Luther and Susan Kelly
Levine Museum of the New South, Basketball Series
Collection Description: 
Interview was produced in conjunction with an exhibit on basketball at the Levine Museum of the New South.
Interview Audio: 
PF (Peter Felkner): It was '67.
LK (Luther Kelly): So how long have you been working for the Museum of the New South?
SK (Susan Kelly): [Laughter]
LK: No, they're good too yeah.
PF: Yeah. Let's see if I got something on.
LK: Where do you want to sit Susan?
SK: Well I'll sit up here.
LK: OK. Well why don't--? Yeah OK. [Long pause]
SK: So what's Elizabeth doing this summer?
PF: You mean Ann, or Sharon?
SK: Ann, Ann, your sister, your, the little one.
PF: Anne is, she's in summer school at Chapel Hill, and Carrie is--,
SK: Carrie is through college?
PF: she's through college and is working for First Union up at, she's up in Raleigh now.
SK: Good for her.
PF: So she's liking that pretty much, alright. [Pause]
PF: So it's your grandfather that's, well in the first basketball game ever played.
LK: That's right.
SK: He was the center because he was the tallest.
LK: He was six feet; that was tall back in those days.
PF: Uh-hum. And then, he came down to Charlotte. How'd he get down to Charlotte?
LK: Well he, [Clears throat] he lived, until then, all his life in Connecticut, and he developed some lung problem they thought was tuberculosis and they told him he needed to go to a warm sunny climate, that if he stayed there he just wasn't going to live very long. And so he came down here. And I don't know just why he picked this particular spot but, he, he came down to Charlotte and started a real estate firm.
PF: What year was that?
LK: That was in 1897, and so he would have been thirty-five years old at that point.
SK: But he had been in Flat Rock for three years, before he came to Charlotte.
LK: I guess he had come down there first, because he had a--.
PF: In the mountains you mean?
LK: Uh-huh. They had a summer--.
PF: Flat Rock, North Carolina.
SK: Uh-huh.
LK: Uh-huh. They had a summer home up there, at, and they came down there first. And then he came, that's right, and then he came down to Charlotte for business reasons to try to get a better business going. And he was--.
SK: Well there's a, there's a picture of Sunnyside, which was their house in Flat Rock, in some of these scrapbooks. [Clears throat] For the first couple of years, according to some of these articles, he just was recuperating--
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: and not really working very much. Then when he needed to really make a living because he had a wife and children, he came to, he came to Charlotte. But they kept the Sunnyside house, for, twenty something years.
PF: Uh-hum.
SK: And--.
LK: My mother was actually born there.
SK: Uh-hum.
LK: Then, then of course we came to Charlotte.
PF: And he came to Charlotte and started the real estate business. And was he involved with Four Cs or was he--did he have his own business?
LK: He had his own business. And, he took in some partners from one time or another. George Stevens who was a big real estate person here; they worked together for a while. And then (Horace Dixon) was in his firm for a while and when I was young. And [Clears throat] then one of his sons came in business with him. And they did [Clears throat] a lot of development in the Dilworth then Wilmore area.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: And.
SK: And they named the streets in Wilmore--,
LK: Uh-huh.
SK: --on Albemarle, are family names. Merriman is one street over in Wilmore and that was a family name, and Nancy was a street that was--. He named them for members of his family or family names. That was the first development in Charlotte that was of--where low-income people could buy homes, was Wilmore.
PF: And then he got involved in Myers Park didn't he? Or did he not?
LK: Well he didn't get involved in Myers Park so much because George Stevens was the one that, that really did that development. And, he was involved in some of the downtown development and they had a house on a street they named, called Sunnyside, which was the name of their mountain place. They lived there for a while and then he, had a rose garden over there. He had donated that to the city. And it was interesting that there was a clause in there that if it ceased to be used as a rose garden it would revert back to him and that's where Independence Boulevard is right now so. They were digging up the rose garden to dig Independence Boulevard. My mother recalled that issue and talked to City Council about it and they agreed to transplant the roses over to Freedom Park. So the little rose garden right across the street from North ( )--
PF: Uh-hum.
LK: --was originally part of the--
SK: Sunnyside Rose Garden.
LK: Sunnyside Rose Garden.
SK: But they lived all over the town. He would develop a neighborhood and move into it. They lived on Louise Avenue at one time. They lived on Sunnyside. They lived in many different houses because he would develop something and they'd live in a house and then--
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: four or five years later they may live but--.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: I'm not sure what year they moved to Providence Road.
LK: No, I don't know either.
SK: There's a picture here of the Providence Road house. But it was, lawn is beautiful, I guess before your mother went to college.
LK: Oh yeah, it was. It was--
SK: Right about.
LK: in the early 20s or late teens.
SK: Oh no, she graduated from college in--
LK: 1919.
SK: So it was before she went to college they moved out.
LK: I guess that's right.
SK: 101 Providence Road. That's where the house was. And that was torn down in 1962.
LK: I don't know when, but it was
SK: About that time.
LK: certainly no earlier than that.
SK: That's where the house was, a big house, where the Metroview building, parking lot it is.
LK: It's right on the corner of Caswell and--
SK: Caswell.
LK: (Cosworth). Takes that curve there and that's the space where the (Nile) new (Nile) clinic is going to be built.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: All that's parking lot right now.
PF: Well. So and he stayed involved in YMCA work for a good while didn't he?
LK: He was on the board of the YMCA for a many years and treasurer for twenty years or so, I guess.
SK: More than that I think.
LK: Yeah, and so that was a keen interest of his and he brought basketball to Charlotte, to the Y, as one of his interest and helped to keep the athletic part of the Y going.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: Do you know about Blue Ridge? Where Blue Ridge is in the mountains? The YMCA center?
PF: [Sound indicating negative response]
SK: Well it's near Asheville. And there's a building there called Abbot Hall that was named for him because of his many years of interest.
LK: There was a, it's a mountain retreat like some of the other church groups have--
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: and it's called Blue Ridge Assembly. It was funded by money raised by the YMCAs around. He was very instrumental in getting that going. And it's still operating today--
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: as a retreat area.
PF: Did he ever tell you about playing basketball or playing in that first game?
LK: He talked to me about that, as I was growing up, many times. Yes, we enjoyed talking about that. And he was very proud of the fact that he had been a student of Dr. Naismith and was on that first team. The game of basketball was started there. He enjoyed that very much and--. [Clears throat]
SK: He played golf and tennis until he was in his eighties.
LK: Uh-hum.
SK: He was quite an athlete all his life.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: I used to go swimming with him too.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: And he was a, he used to go to the beach with you all. He was a great swimmer.
LK: And I was a little bit young to, or he was old enough that he didn't get into basketball much when I was old enough to play so we didn't do that together.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: But he used to go down to the Y several days a week when I was growing up.
SK: This was when the Y was downtown.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: It was on Tryon Street.
SK: Tryon Street.
LK: It was where the old city clubs and the old Mutual Center of (Long Bank). That was the Y when I was a kid.
SK: Where was his office?
LK: In the Johnston Building.
SK: Johnston Building.
PF: Did he ever tell you about that first game?
LK: Well he, yeah, he, he talked about that.
PF: What was it like?
LK: Well, some of it's written up here in these articles but he, he said there were a group of Springfield College students got together and Dr. Naismith was telling them about this new game he was working on. And they took some peach baskets and took the bottom out of them.
SK: Well they didn't take the bottom out first.
LK: Oh, they didn't?
SK: No, because one of the articles said the bottoms were in the basket and every time they made a goal, then they'd have to get a ladder and get the ball out. But the ball then was more like a soccer ball, or something. You might like to read some of these articles about him.
PF: Yeah, I would.
SK: I don't know. They're pretty fragile, but we could lend some of them to you.
PF: That would be great. And make a photocopy.
SK: So you could copy. But, he talked about these, well they had a birthday party for him about every year I guess because they thought that's going to be the last birthday and he lived to be ninety-six. [Laughter]
PF: [Laughter]
SK: But he got lots of newspaper write-ups. He was a fine old gentleman around town and so every birthday, I think there's an article in the newspaper about him.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: And fortunately there's, his mother always cut them out and pasted them in a scrapbook.
PF: I've seen something there's a file on him down at the public library.
SK: Well, one of these articles says that he made a tape, talking about this. And I had never heard about this tape.
LK: No, that's news to me. I hadn't heard about any tape.
SK: But one of them said he made a tape talking about playing basketball in Springfield.
PF: That would have been great.
SK: I've no idea where that, what happened to that tape, or who would have had it or done it but, if we read some of these articles more carefully we might--
LK: Yeah.
SK: figure out who made the tape.
PF: That'd be quite an asset to have.
SK: Uh-hum.
LK: I would guess it was somebody down at the Y on the staff or something.
SK: Well that may have been.
PF: Did it say, do you remember when it--?
SK: Well, I don't know whether this is the one or not. I would just have to read through some of these
SK: articles but, to find out which one. He was the center on the basketball. He was very proud of the fact that he was the first ever center in basketball, you know, because he was the tallest.
PF: Uh-hum.
SK: But that was a great claim to fame, I guess, that his family liked to talk about that he was the center.
PF: I've heard some accounts of that first game; they said they had nine people on a side.
LK: Yeah I think there were twenty-one people all together or something.
SK: The first game was in 1891. The first basketball center in history. [Pause] It was good recreation.
PF: Do you remember any specific incidents he told you about? About playing?
LK: No I can't really recall anything specific, but other than the fact that it was the first game. And the fact that they only scored only two or three baskets and that was, you know, a big deal.
PF: Uh-huh. [Long pause]
LK: It was a, it was sort of a pick up kind of game. It wasn't an organized game team sort of thing.
PF: Right. Nobody knew much what they were doing.
LK: That's right. I really don't recall anything more specific than that about it.
PF: When he was in Charlotte, did he every coach any basketball teams? Or did he ever stay involved directly with it?
LK: Well I don't think he was that involved with it really, except when he first helped get it started he participated pretty much and, but by the time I knew enough to remember about it he wasn't really active in the basketball game at that point.
PF: There was another guy that played in that first game that came to Charlotte. His name was Mahan, Frank Mahan.
SK: Yeah but he lived in California, according to this article.
PF: Yeah, I've read something where he came, and he was a, he worked at the Y here in Charlotte for about four or five years? Do you remember any, do you ever recall that? [Pause]
LK: No I don't know that I remember anything that he said about that. He could well have and just slipped my mind but this doesn't ring any bells or anything I can remember him saying about it.
PF: Uh-huh. The game sure has came a long way.
SK: Well, they didn't dribble at first. It was just pass the ball.
PF: We took a trip up to Springfield to the Hall of Fame.
SK: Oh did you?
PF: And he was up there. Had the whole team.
SK: Oh did they?
LK: That's right. I'll have to do that myself sometime.
SK: We have never done that. I'm surprised. I didn't know that.
PF: I found an article in the Charlotte Observer where they played a game in 1893 at the Y here in Charlotte. And they didn't score any points.
LK: [Laughter]
PF: Well they didn't score any field goals. They scored a couple points on free throws.
LK: Uh-huh.
PF: But, apparently they didn't know much what they were doing either. But that was only two years after
LK: Yeah.
PF: the first game. And so he came in 1897.
LK: Yeah.
PF: So he, he must have helped them figure the game out a little bit I guess. I'm sure there wasn't much of a program going.
LK: No, I'm sure it wasn't. Well, basketball wasn't all that popular of a game until, what the 1950s?
SK: It started after World War II.
LK: Yeah.
SK: Was when it became really popular. In the 50s was when it became really popular.
PF: Yeah, and that big game in '57 when--
SK: Yeah when Carolina won. [Laughter]
LK: Well every case really sort of stimulated the real rivalry between the colleges and that got people interested in them.
PF: We've talked with the McCachrens a lot.
LK: Yeah.
SK: Yeah, they're quite a, quite a family.
PF: That's a quite a story. They were pretty involved in it.
SK: Well they really were, to have so many boys go to the same school and play basketball and all be captains of the team.
PF: Yeah. Some kind of, I think it's still a record.
LK: Yeah, I bet it is.
SK: Oh yeah. I'm sure it is.
PF: They're real nice guys. The most amazing part of that is John McCachren, the older brother, you know, who had to quit school and go to work.
SK: Help support them. Uh-huh.
PF: And put them all through school. He's a real nice guy.
LK: Are they all still around here?
PF: They're all still living. John is about ninety.
SK: And Toad is the youngest, and he's older than Johnny (Perin). So he must be seventy.
PF: He's mid-seventies, yeah.
LK: Yeah, he was, yeah, four or five years older that I was.
SK: Yeah, well.
LK: But I knew him.
PF: He's a little under the weather.
SK: Well they lived on Lexington Avenue.
PF: He's a little under the weather these days.
SK: Toad is.
PF: Emphysema or something.
LK: That's too bad. I haven't seen him in years.
PF: But I, you know that all the other three are not living in town so I haven't spoken to them.
SK: I guess Bill still lives in Raleigh though.
PF: One lives in Raleigh, one's in Florida and one's in Nashville I think. One's an Episcopal minister in Nashville. I don't know which one it is. But they are quite interesting.
SK: Yeah, it was a big family. There were something like eleven children.
PF: Did either of you play basketball?
LK: No, I [Cough] didn't play any organized basketball. You know we used to have fun pick up games in college and high school but not on a team.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: But a lot of people ask me that because--
SK: They thought he would have encouraged you so.
LK: I wasn't taller than average. And there wasn't that much interest in it in high school or college when I came along, at least where I was.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: You played tennis and golf.
PF: Both of ya'll from here? Grow up here?
SK: No I grew up in Johnson City, Tennessee.
LK: She taught school here for a while before we were married. Then went to Greensboro to Woman's College and then I brought her back.
PF: Did you go to Central High School?
LK: I went to Dilworth and AG and Central High and UNC Chapel Hill.
PF: Where'd you go to medical school?
LK: Well the medical school at Chapel Hill was just a two-year school when I was there and it was wartime and I went there for two years and then I got my M.D. from Harvard. They had four or five two-year schools throughout the country.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: Dartmouth had one, University of Alabama, and one in, one in the Dakotas. South Dakota I think it was. Anyway, and some of them, and back then the medical curriculum was pretty much divided up into basic sciences the first two years and then clinical the last two. So it worked out all right to transfer into a third year program somewhere.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: But now we don't have that any more.
PF: But you wouldn't have been qualified as a doctor, after getting out of the two-year program?
LK: No, no huh-uh. That was not a M.D. degree, that was--. I got a certificate in medicine was what they called it. I got my M.D. from Harvard. And you had to complete four years of course to get a position. Plus your post-graduate training.
PF: We're also doing a, we're going to do an exhibit next fall on the thirty-eighth UA.
LK: Oh are you? Well that'll be interesting.
PF: But I guess you were still in Med. School during the war.
LK: Yeah, that was, when I was in college or in medical school at that time. And you better get on it before too many of the people who went die. [Laughter]
PF: Yeah I know. I saw Dr. Pitts the other day--
LK: Did you?
PF: up at the club. He was. He's getting.
SK: He's getting very feeble.
PF: He's getting kind of fragile. Yeah. And I've been reading, I spent the past couple weeks, I'm still not through reading Clarence Keister's letters.
SK: Oh.
PF: He was a non-comp in the unit.
SK: Well, Dr. Bill Matthews who used to practice here was in that and he loves to talk about that. He lives down in Union County, South Carolina.
PF: Yeah, right. I think we've got some of his letters too.
SK: He would be somebody good to talk to because that was one of his favorite subjects.
PF: It made quite an impression on him I think.
SK: Yeah.
PF: Quite an experience.
SK: Yeah, it really was. That was a great unit I guess that was organized from here.
PF: Well it was unique because you just didn't do that unless you were a real big city teaching hospital, you know.
LK: Yeah that's right.
PF: Because it just.
LK: That's how most of them were.
PF: Because it just took all the doctors out. You end up with a lot of doctors.
SK: Uh-huh.
PF: And you wouldn't have anybody left to staff your hospital. So they got about half of the doctors from, I think, Memorial and then went elsewhere and got some others from around the South.
SK: Now Pres didn't go with that group did he? He was in the Navy.
LK: That's right.
PF: But they got a lot of media attention. Ernie Pile covered them and Margaret Burke-White--
SK: Really.
PF: took a bunch of photos of them that were publish in Life.
LK: Uh-huh.
PF: So there's a lot of material on them.
SK: It would be interesting. Yeah.
PF: But this basketball exhibit that we're doing is going to be neat I think because, there is a lot of social. You know you can, you can examine the social structure of Charlotte through the years by examining who played basketball ball in the Y and, you know, what they got out of the game. Because, you know, they use basketball at the YMCA to teach, not just athletic skill but things like sportsmanship and clean living and how to develop as a young man. In the black community they used basketball to teach them to be competitive, you know, because it was going to be a hard life out there for them and so. And then, women played basketball, and played basketball for almost as long as men here in Charlotte. Well in the nation and here in Charlotte. And it's really interesting, you know, how the game develops for women because it first started out and there was three sections of the court and women were assigned to one zone, you know.
SK: Uh-huh.
PF: They wouldn't let them run outside that zone.
LK: Uh-huh.
SK: You couldn't cross the line. I know.
PF: Because they didn't think women could run up and down the court. And then they moved it to just two to the half court. Two zones. And they figured women could run a little bit more and then they changed it to just the men's rules.
LK: How is the basketball exhibit going to be structured?
PF: Well, we're kind of working on that right now. We've got--. I mean, I'm learning this as I'm learning about museums and how to put together exhibits. But you go out and you find the stuff that's available and then you try and determine the story you want to tell and then you try to tell that story through the stuff that you have. And of course it's all limited by the amount of money you have to spend on it and, and how you can exhibit it. But right now we've got this plan. See we don't have a building. Our museum doesn't have a building so we use temporary spots and it's been kind of a search, a struggle for us to get a spot for this and we've got a plan right now. You know where the old Carolina Theater is, you know in town? There's that facade on Franklin Street, I mean on Tryon Street--
LK: [Laughter]
PF: --Tryon Street, and then behind it's kind of an empty lot where it burned down. And then there's the main part of the theater that's still left. So we're planning on using that empty lot. We're planning on clearing it out, paving it, leaving the facade of the Carolina Theater there and then we're going to erect a giant, like, circus tent that will be just a temporary structure for about four months.
LK: Uh-huh.
PF: About four or five months that the exhibit will run starting next March when the ACC Tournament and the Final Four are coming.
SK: Don't you think the grandson of the first center of a basketball team ought to have some tickets to the Final Four?
LK: [Laughter]
PF: Yeah I think you should.
LK: Yeah, I do too.
SK: His check was returned yesterday.
PF: Is that right.
LK: Yeah, I just got that back.
PF: You couldn't pull any strings there huh?
LK: Well that computer didn't have that programmed in it.
PF: Yeah.
SK: Yeah. [Laughter]
PF: Yeah, I think they should take you out there at half time and put you on center court and put a spot light on you.
SK: [Laughter] That's what we thought. That's what I thought.
LK: Yeah, write them.
PF: Well, yeah maybe.
SK: I think you should have written a little note that my grandfather was a [Pause], couldn't have gotten along without him.
PF: Yeah. Well maybe, I don't know, maybe one of those big corporate, you know corporations or whatever.
LK: Yeah.
PF: And maybe they'll get a hold of that and--
LK: Uh-huh.
SK: And invite you. [Laughter]
PF: --invite you. Give you one of those prime seats down there.
SK: [Laughter]
PF: Well, is there anything else about your grandfather or basketball that you want to put on the record for posterity.
LK: Well, my grandfather really loved Charlotte. And he devoted a lot of time to civic affairs and he would be very happy to, if he could know the community is developing the exhibit like this and a museum. And I think the Museum of the New South is a great concept and I think a museum without walls is a pretty good idea. So I think he would be very pleased if he was participating in this little thing. It's very nice.
PF: Well he was kind of involved in not only bringing basketball to Charlotte but also--
SK: He was involved many things and so is Mrs. Abbott, so was Luther's grandfather, grandmother.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: She was on the board of the YWCA for many, many years--
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: And was the second president of the board and was very involved in travel, Traveler's Aid and--
PF: What was that?
SK: Well it was people who got stranded at the bus station or something like that and needed help.
PF: Uh-huh.
LK: It was a United Wayorganization.
SK: Ways, uh-huh. And I don't know--. I guess Traveler's Aid just sort of dissolved many years ago.
LK: Yeah.
SK: It was a very active. And she was a great civic leader, Mrs. Abbott was.
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: I don't think in any of these scrapbooks is a, one of your grandfather's obituaries but the obituaries of your grandmother and all of the things she was involved in.
LK: Oh really?
SK: Now would you like to sign your life away and borrow something? [Laughter]
PF: I would, I really would.
LK: [Laughter]
PF: I especially would like to take that photo because I'd like to have a copy made.
SK: Of that last picture of him? Oh sure.
PF: And then I'd like--.
SK: There's a lovely, we have a lovely painting of him in the dining room too, a portrait that you might like to see. But some of these--
PF: Are very fragile.
SK: Well, don't come, don't come out, you know.
PF: Yeah.
SK: I think. Like, like this one, when he's talking about the first game. And some of these, the pages don't come out, but here's a picture of him. This is on his eighty-fifth birthday. And he lived to be ninety-six?
LK: Uh-huh.
PF: I think I can very carefully put that down on a--
SK: Uh-huh.
PF: --on a machine.
SK: And this is a, there are all these articles about him on his birthday. Here is the article about him.
PF: So you've got most of them marked. Right?
SK: Yeah, I've got a lot of them marked. This is one about his, more about his real estate business, I think. He lost most of his money during the Depression. [Pause] This one is, this is when grandmother died. But this is all about grandfather here.
PF: Uh-huh. [Pause]
SK: These are prior to 1950 copy. [Pause] And that's some of his relatives. This page seems to already be out if you'd--
PF: Okay.
SK: like that page? And this page?
PF: Yeah. The library, if at some time you don't want to keep these in the family or something, the library would preserve all these for you, because they collect, they have kind of an archive down there so.
SK: Here's his ninetieth birthday. [Laughter]
PF: Yeah.
SK: And this may be the same mark of one of those other--.
LK: Uh-huh.
SK: Yeah, I think that is the same.
LK: That might be a good idea there. If the library could preserve some of this.
SK: Some of it, yeah.
PF: Yeah, they keep all this stuff. They got a vault down there and historians like me would love to have these resources.
SK: I think there's something else in here. Lets see. [Pause] A lot of these I need to give to--. Here it is. Here's his obituary. [Long pause] If you want to. [Long pause]
PF: Well, you tell me what would be alright for me to take with me to copy.
SK: Well, if you just want to just, you know, take these and take them very carefully, you are welcome to, to take them.
PF: Take real good care of them.
SK: You want to take your mother's picture out. It's on the back of that. This is a picture of Luther's mother. Did you ever know her? She was--
PF: Uh-huh.
SK: She was the director of the planetarium, the nature museum, for many years.
PF: Yeah. I spent many a summer day down there when I was growing up.
SK: This was where he was born. This picture. [Pause] Now lets see.
PF: Is this something here?
SK: Yeah this was a picture of him at the Y. He apparently loved to go and be with the children.
PF: Uh-huh. [Long pause]
SK: That's his ninety-fourth birthday. [Laughter] These are just pictures of friends. Yeah she, Mrs. (Gallagher) is wonderful at keeping scrapbooks. Her friend--. There's another article about him. We need to mark that one too-- and her friends children and her children's friends, [Pause] some of your mother's friends. I'm sure she'd have a good time looking through these.
PF: Yeah she was. She loves this. I've been bringing home some of these things. She get--.
SK: [Laughter]
PF: She loves them. I brought home a lot of--the McCachren's had kept a bunch of these. She loved going through those.
SK: She would know a lot of the people in here. This is when we got married. [Laughter]
PF: OK. You were a very pretty bride.
SK: Thank you.
LK: [Cough]
PF: Well, this is great. Thank you very much for this. And I'll take very good care of it and return it to you as soon as I get it copied.
SK: Alright. Good.
LK: OK. That'll be fine.
SK: Do you want something to put this in?
PF: I'll get a box at home or something.
SK: Oh let me see. Luther look down in the basement and see if there may be a box.